In the wake of the announcement to bring nomadic identity to ActivityPub, Hubzilla catches people's interest, but not only in positive ways; CW: long (4,903 characters), Fediverse meta, non-Mastodon Fediverse meta
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This is interesting to watch.
The cat's out of the bag. @Mike Macgirvin 🖥️'s announcement to implement nomadic identity à la Hubzilla and (streams) in ActivityPub is in the news all over the Fediverse. Of course, you can't expect everyone in the Fediverse to know what nomadic identity is, so the explanation is that it's that stuff that Hubzilla does.
Which, in many cases, is the very first time that Mastodon users even read that name and learn about the existence of that project. I mean, I've seen a poll just yesterday, according to which three out of four Fediverse users have never heard of Hubzilla.
This, in turn, piques their interest. All of a sudden, lots of Mastodon users are curious about Hubzilla as it's said to be able to do things that Mastodon can't, but that they wish Mastodon could.
Some like @dynamic who haven't used any other Fediverse projects than Mastodon so far actually go as far as trying it out themselves, only to discover something probably absolutely unexpected: Hubzilla works and handles absolutely nothing like Mastodon. And that's not simply due to the formerly-default-and-now-only UI that's perpetually stuck in 2012.
They may actually wonder why Mike had the audacity to build something that's so much different from Mastodon instead of just aping Mastodon and slapping extra stuff on. And I guess they're even more surprised when you tell them that Hubzilla was made before Mastodon. Which means that there was a Fediverse before Mastodon.
It occurred to me only recently just how many ways Hubzilla has to completely blow Mastodon users' minds.
However, it isn't like people who have come from Twitter to Mastodon to Hubzilla over the last year and a half are all happy about how Hubzilla is different from Mastodon. Switching from Mastodon to Hubzilla takes more getting used to than switching from Twitter to Mastodon, especially if you expect Mastodon to be a standard that everything else has to follow.
There are, in fact, lots of things about Hubzilla that'll irritate people used to Mastodon to no end. The confusing difference between account and channel. The unusual conversation model that sends posts to other people than on Mastodon which doesn't have a conversation model. Separate editors for posts and comments. In fact, posts and comments being something different. ActivityPub not being on by default, and instead of having a simple opt-in switch in the settings, you have to "install" an "app" to be able to connect to Mastodon. No CW field (it's the summary field, but there's none for comments). No alt-text field. No distinction between followers and followed. Stuff in the settings not being where you'd expect it to be from your experience with Mastodon.
And I'm not even talking about the vast permission options yet. Or the filters which even I say need improvements. Or Hubzilla being unable to boost (shall be fixed with Hubzilla 9) and follow hashtags. Or people telling you that you have to type code manually if you want to have alt-text.
Even those who learn about Hubzilla without trying it are confused. Why is it so different? Why does it have to be so different? Why can't it be like Mastodon?
In fact, it doesn't really occur rarely that Mastodon users consider almost everything in which Hubzilla differs from Mastodon a bug which they think can be fixed. It seems to be hard to imagine that what they take for a bug is part of Hubzilla's concept, and it has often been part of the concept since the early days of Mistpark back in 2010, almost six years before Mastodon came out.
I think over the next days and weeks, Hubzilla will increasingly be considered not only weirdly different, but disturbingly different. Along with that, more and more Mastodon users will become aware of the "atrocities" from a Mastodon point of view which Hubzilla users commit in the Fediverse, and which they justify with their different culture. Enormously long posts, text formatting, quotes, quote-posts, as if it's all the most normal thing in the world. Which, for Hubzilla users, it is.
In the near future, Mastodon will likely produce two more forms of drama. One is strong opposition against nomadic identity anywhere in the Fediverse, not so much because it's "un-Mastodon-like", but because it's expected to be used in malicious ways.
The other one is increasing opposition against Hubzilla itself and more and more calls for Fediblocking it in its entirety, along with all Mastodon or otherwise Fediverse instances that don't Fediblock all Hubzilla hubs. All because it's got that disturbing stuff like nomadic identity and huge posts well over 500 characters and quote-posts with no opt-out for anyone. And because more and more Mastodon users become aware of it.
I hope it won't happen, but I can't exclude it.
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Hubzilla
The cat's out of the bag. @Mike Macgirvin 🖥️'s announcement to implement nomadic identity à la Hubzilla and (streams) in ActivityPub is in the news all over the Fediverse. Of course, you can't expect everyone in the Fediverse to know what nomadic identity is, so the explanation is that it's that stuff that Hubzilla does.
Which, in many cases, is the very first time that Mastodon users even read that name and learn about the existence of that project. I mean, I've seen a poll just yesterday, according to which three out of four Fediverse users have never heard of Hubzilla.
This, in turn, piques their interest. All of a sudden, lots of Mastodon users are curious about Hubzilla as it's said to be able to do things that Mastodon can't, but that they wish Mastodon could.
Some like @dynamic who haven't used any other Fediverse projects than Mastodon so far actually go as far as trying it out themselves, only to discover something probably absolutely unexpected: Hubzilla works and handles absolutely nothing like Mastodon. And that's not simply due to the formerly-default-and-now-only UI that's perpetually stuck in 2012.
They may actually wonder why Mike had the audacity to build something that's so much different from Mastodon instead of just aping Mastodon and slapping extra stuff on. And I guess they're even more surprised when you tell them that Hubzilla was made before Mastodon. Which means that there was a Fediverse before Mastodon.
It occurred to me only recently just how many ways Hubzilla has to completely blow Mastodon users' minds.
However, it isn't like people who have come from Twitter to Mastodon to Hubzilla over the last year and a half are all happy about how Hubzilla is different from Mastodon. Switching from Mastodon to Hubzilla takes more getting used to than switching from Twitter to Mastodon, especially if you expect Mastodon to be a standard that everything else has to follow.
There are, in fact, lots of things about Hubzilla that'll irritate people used to Mastodon to no end. The confusing difference between account and channel. The unusual conversation model that sends posts to other people than on Mastodon which doesn't have a conversation model. Separate editors for posts and comments. In fact, posts and comments being something different. ActivityPub not being on by default, and instead of having a simple opt-in switch in the settings, you have to "install" an "app" to be able to connect to Mastodon. No CW field (it's the summary field, but there's none for comments). No alt-text field. No distinction between followers and followed. Stuff in the settings not being where you'd expect it to be from your experience with Mastodon.
And I'm not even talking about the vast permission options yet. Or the filters which even I say need improvements. Or Hubzilla being unable to boost (shall be fixed with Hubzilla 9) and follow hashtags. Or people telling you that you have to type code manually if you want to have alt-text.
Even those who learn about Hubzilla without trying it are confused. Why is it so different? Why does it have to be so different? Why can't it be like Mastodon?
In fact, it doesn't really occur rarely that Mastodon users consider almost everything in which Hubzilla differs from Mastodon a bug which they think can be fixed. It seems to be hard to imagine that what they take for a bug is part of Hubzilla's concept, and it has often been part of the concept since the early days of Mistpark back in 2010, almost six years before Mastodon came out.
I think over the next days and weeks, Hubzilla will increasingly be considered not only weirdly different, but disturbingly different. Along with that, more and more Mastodon users will become aware of the "atrocities" from a Mastodon point of view which Hubzilla users commit in the Fediverse, and which they justify with their different culture. Enormously long posts, text formatting, quotes, quote-posts, as if it's all the most normal thing in the world. Which, for Hubzilla users, it is.
In the near future, Mastodon will likely produce two more forms of drama. One is strong opposition against nomadic identity anywhere in the Fediverse, not so much because it's "un-Mastodon-like", but because it's expected to be used in malicious ways.
The other one is increasing opposition against Hubzilla itself and more and more calls for Fediblocking it in its entirety, along with all Mastodon or otherwise Fediverse instances that don't Fediblock all Hubzilla hubs. All because it's got that disturbing stuff like nomadic identity and huge posts well over 500 characters and quote-posts with no opt-out for anyone. And because more and more Mastodon users become aware of it.
I hope it won't happen, but I can't exclude it.
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Hubzilla
show all 18 comments
@jupiter_rowland @mikedev
I would have preferred if you'd kept my name out of this.
My reason for trying Hubzilla had nothing to do with the recent buzz. And I've had a Friendica account for some time now, and wanted to see how Hubzilla measured up before looking into self-hosting.
(edited to remove CW)
I would have preferred if you'd kept my name out of this.
My reason for trying Hubzilla had nothing to do with the recent buzz. And I've had a Friendica account for some time now, and wanted to see how Hubzilla measured up before looking into self-hosting.
(edited to remove CW)
@Jupiter Rowland Hmm, i think you worry too much. Most people seem just happy to connect, regardless of the platform. From hundreds of my Mastodon friends i never heard a "platform-fascist" word.
@dynamic I could remove it, but I can't count on everything out there fully supporting edits on Hubzilla and replacing the old version of my post with the edited one. I know that some don't.
@jupiter_rowland
I think what's done is done. I mostly wanted to register that your assumptions about me were incorrect.
I think what's done is done. I mostly wanted to register that your assumptions about me were incorrect.
@_jayrope Those who are the most likely to rage against Hubzilla tomorrow still don't know that it exists or at least what it can do today.
In the wake of the announcement to bring nomadic identity to ActivityPub, Hubzilla catches people's interest, but not only in positive ways; CW: long (4,903 characters), Fediverse meta, non-Mastodon Fediverse meta
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@jupiter_rowland Mastodon came after Hubzilla. Hubzilla was built on its own protocol and Hubzilla added the ActivityPub protocol long time back to connect to the whole Fediverse (not just Mastodon).
Don't see what issues Mastodon users may have with it, as it has connected for ages.
Don't see what issues Mastodon users may have with it, as it has connected for ages.
@Danie van der Merwe
You know that, I know that, but there are not exactly few people on Mastodon who don't know that.
Even when they learn that the Fediverse is not only Mastodon, much to their surprise, they tend to believe that if Mastodon isn't the only Fediverse project, it must still have been the first. And everything that isn't Mastodon is either bolted onto Mastodon or an intruder.
Disturbingly long posts. Non-Mastodon users are banned for exceeding 500 characters once. And I'm pretty sure that Mastodon users try to have non-Mastodon users sanctioned by their admins for breaking this unwritten Fediverse rule.
Quote-posts. For Hubzilla users, it's called sharing, and it has been the equivalent to Mastodon's boosts since 2015 because Hubzilla can't boost. Not until Hubzilla 9 is out. For minorities on Mastodon, it's the exact same thing as the quote-tweets that were used on Twitter to harass them. And Hubzilla doesn't let them opt in, not even opt out. Hubzilla can quote-post anyone on Mastodon, always.
I'm not even sure if every last first-wave and second-wave Twitter refugee who got used to Mastodon 3 is used to seeing things on Mastodon that were absolutely impossible on Mastodon 3 such as text formatting.
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Mastodon #Hubzilla
Mastodon came after Hubzilla. Hubzilla was built on its own protocol and Hubzilla added the ActivityPub protocol long time back to connect to the whole Fediverse (not just Mastodon).
You know that, I know that, but there are not exactly few people on Mastodon who don't know that.
Even when they learn that the Fediverse is not only Mastodon, much to their surprise, they tend to believe that if Mastodon isn't the only Fediverse project, it must still have been the first. And everything that isn't Mastodon is either bolted onto Mastodon or an intruder.
Don't see what issues Mastodon users may have with it, as it has connected for ages.
Disturbingly long posts. Non-Mastodon users are banned for exceeding 500 characters once. And I'm pretty sure that Mastodon users try to have non-Mastodon users sanctioned by their admins for breaking this unwritten Fediverse rule.
Quote-posts. For Hubzilla users, it's called sharing, and it has been the equivalent to Mastodon's boosts since 2015 because Hubzilla can't boost. Not until Hubzilla 9 is out. For minorities on Mastodon, it's the exact same thing as the quote-tweets that were used on Twitter to harass them. And Hubzilla doesn't let them opt in, not even opt out. Hubzilla can quote-post anyone on Mastodon, always.
I'm not even sure if every last first-wave and second-wave Twitter refugee who got used to Mastodon 3 is used to seeing things on Mastodon that were absolutely impossible on Mastodon 3 such as text formatting.
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Mastodon #Hubzilla
@jupiter_rowland thanks yes I do get the differences ) esp where Hubzilla is better) but I still don't see why Mastodon users will have issues with Hubzilla users, who have already been around for ages, and there are other networks on Fediverse with long format posts as well. Hubzilla is nothing new, and I don't think most Mastodon users even know who is posting from Hubzilla, as all instances have different names. I don't think Hubzilla should be singled out.
Jupiter perhaps exaggerates in some places, but what he writes is certainly not part of a science fiction book. What happened to my site last year has already shown us something like this.
@jupiter_rowland @mikedev I think #Hubzilla would have been more cool and successful if it didn't had #ActivityPub app and was its own alternative Fediverse. I wonder if there probably are Hubzilla instances without it. And actually i find the way Hubzilla does "Share" posts to be better than Mastodon in a way that you really give additional visibility to self and post you share by making it appear once again on public timelines. As well it can prevent ActivityPub posts from appearing on your instance in case you'd want your instance to be zot protocol-only posts. I actually like current version of Hubzilla and I prefer old versions of Mastodon like Qoto and Fedibird.
@fisunov
Well, Hubzilla is a direct descendant of Friendica. And Friendica's concept was and still is to federate with everything that moved and then some. StatusNet (which included early Mastodon and Pleroma, by the way), Diaspora*, Tumblr, Libertree, Twitter, e-mail, even Facebook for a few months, although that definitely required a Facebook account.
Hubzilla took a lot of that over. And Hubzilla was actually the first Fediverse project to adopt ActivityPub, even before its standardisation and two months before Mastodon.
But ActivityPub is actually optional both for the whole hub (on by default) and for each channel (off by default). So it's actually possible to run an entire Hubzilla hub with no ActivityPub at all.
Zap, a fork of Osada which itself was a slimmed-down fork of Hubzilla, had no ActivityPub at all in its early stages. Mike created it as a testbed for Zot6, and he expected Zot6 to be incompatible with non-nomadic protocols such as ActivityPub, so Zap only knew Zot6 and no other protocol, and Osada which lacked nomadic identity was to be used as a bridge between Zap and the rest of the Fediverse. Later on, Zot6 did become compatible with non-nomadic protocols, so Zap got ActivityPub support after all. And there was actually much rejoicing.
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Hubzilla
I think #Hubzilla would have been more cool and successful if it didn't had #ActivityPub app and was its own alternative Fediverse. I wonder if there probably are Hubzilla instances without it.
Well, Hubzilla is a direct descendant of Friendica. And Friendica's concept was and still is to federate with everything that moved and then some. StatusNet (which included early Mastodon and Pleroma, by the way), Diaspora*, Tumblr, Libertree, Twitter, e-mail, even Facebook for a few months, although that definitely required a Facebook account.
Hubzilla took a lot of that over. And Hubzilla was actually the first Fediverse project to adopt ActivityPub, even before its standardisation and two months before Mastodon.
But ActivityPub is actually optional both for the whole hub (on by default) and for each channel (off by default). So it's actually possible to run an entire Hubzilla hub with no ActivityPub at all.
Zap, a fork of Osada which itself was a slimmed-down fork of Hubzilla, had no ActivityPub at all in its early stages. Mike created it as a testbed for Zot6, and he expected Zot6 to be incompatible with non-nomadic protocols such as ActivityPub, so Zap only knew Zot6 and no other protocol, and Osada which lacked nomadic identity was to be used as a bridge between Zap and the rest of the Fediverse. Later on, Zot6 did become compatible with non-nomadic protocols, so Zap got ActivityPub support after all. And there was actually much rejoicing.
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Hubzilla
I don't think that there will be mass outrage over what Hubzilla can do, since Hubzilla actually solves a lot of problems people are complaining about, such as being able to move your channel to another server, or being able to control who can comment on your posts.
Sure, when people encounter concepts that are new to them, there will be a learning curve, and potentially some misunderstandings. But that is the natural order of things.
Sure, when people encounter concepts that are new to them, there will be a learning curve, and potentially some misunderstandings. But that is the natural order of things.
@dynamic I really appreciate your breakdown of Hubzilla. A detailed outside perspective is useful for our growth. For example, I am working on a new theme for Hubzilla, and hearing a new user's perspective helps us understand where our UI could be better.
@dynamic Thank you. We will be releasing a new Hubzilla theme soon, and I would love to get your feedback on that when the time comes.
I had no idea what Hubzilla was to be honest until I saw your post on my Mastodon feed. I come originally from GNU Social, so my perspective might be different than a typical Mastodon user. I think it's fun to try new platforms. One problem that I had with Mastodon and other places is that a lot of servers that I was on tended to shut down for random reasons. The idea of a nomadic identity is actually a good one, in my opinion.
To be honest I am opposed to Threads taking over the fediverse because I really am not a fan of Zuckerberg or Meta.
To be honest I am opposed to Threads taking over the fediverse because I really am not a fan of Zuckerberg or Meta.
@Jolene Since you are familiar with GNU Social, you might be familiar with some of the other projects in the same family that came out around the same time, such as Red Matrix and Friendica. Hubzilla is an offshoot in that family tree. If you trace our roots all the way back, development began May 14th, 2010.
The current Hubzilla theme takes some getting used to. But hopefully @Scott M. Stolz will have a new theme out shortly.
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