In the end, I think the social web will be multi-protocol. Even though each protocol shares basic communications features, they are all trying to solve different problems.

ActivityPub is growing and lightweight. A lot of new development is going on in the form of Fediverse Enhancement Proposals (FEPs), and there is a push to create an updated specification for ActivityPub. It is a protocol that anyone can implement and run, even on inexpensive hardware.

AT Protocol has major backers, but is expensive to run in a decentralized manner. They are prioritizing experience over decentralization. Friendica supports AT Protocol, and that could be ported to Hubzilla as well, creating at least two Fediverse platforms that support both ActivityPub and AT Protocol natively. Other platforms are talking about supporting both AT Protocol and ActivityPub.

Bridgy Fed already bridges AT Protocol, ActivityPub, and websites that wish to connect to both of these networks.

Zot Protocol (Nomad version 6) will continue to be used by Hubzilla. There is no incentive to switch to ActivityPub for Hubzilla-to-Hubzilla communications since ActivityPub has less functionality than Zot and converting would be a lot of work with little benefit. Nomad protocol is up in the air since Mike is working on porting the Nomad functionality over to ActivityPub, but I hope that Hubzilla and (streams) can be made 100% compatible so that we don't have to differentiate between Zot 6 and Nomad 12 anymore.

Diaspora isn't growing, but may be expanded by Hubzilla and Friendica, which are multi-protocol platforms.

And that does not include Nostr, Secure Scuttlebutt (SSB), and other protocols that have their use cases and adherents. For example, SSB can be used offline, which is unique and useful in certain applications. Nostr can be integrated with cryptocurrency, allowing user-to-user payments.

Since they all solve different problems and have different audiences, it will be hard to get everyone adopt one protocol to rule them all.

And that is probably the best outcome. Different protocols can try out different things, and the great ideas spread across protocols. For example, a lot of the functionality in Zot and Nomad are being proposed as additions to ActivityPub. Ideas such as Decentralized Identifiers (DIDs) are making their way into multiple protocols. We can all learn from each other, instead of creating one monolith protocol that tells everyone how they must operate.

I think that eventually each of these protocols will bridge basic functionality between each other. Or third parties will do it for them, as is the case with Bridgy Fed, Friendica, and to a lesser extent Hubzilla. And platforms that support multiple protocols will have an advantage over platforms that do not.

#Hubzilla #ActivityPub #nostr #bridgyfed #diaspora #Zot #Nomad #ssb #atproto

@Strypey A few more details:

* FEP-ef61: Portable Objects

https://codeberg.org/fediverse/fep/src/branch/main/fep/ef61/fep-ef61.md

Invented in, I think, 2023 by @silverpill for Mitra (based on ActivityPub). Currently implemented there and in @Mike Macgirvin ?️'s streams repository and Forte. Part of the plan to introduce almost Nomad-level, but cross-project nomadic identity to ActivityPub.

* FEP-61cf: The OpenWebAuth Protocol

https://codeberg.org/fediverse/fep/src/branch/main/fep/61cf/fep-61cf.md

Invented in 2018 by Mike Macgirvin for Zap (Zot6 development platform; discontinued 2022). Backported to Hubzilla in 2020. Full server-side and client-side implementation only in Hubzilla (based on Zot6, also supports ActivityPub etc.), (streams) (based on Nomad, also supports Zot6 and ActivityPub) and Forte (based on ActivityPub). Friendica has a client-side implementation. Mastodon has a client-side implementation pull request that has to be merged eventually.

CC: @Laurens Hof

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Friendica #Hubzilla #Zap #Streams #(streams) #Forte #Zot #Zot6 #Nomad #ActivityPub #FEP #FEP_ef61 #FEP_61cf #DecentralizedIdentity #NomadicIdentity #OpenWebAuth #SingleSignOn

@glyn Decentralised identity has been available for longer than Mastodon, let alone ActivityPub. Only that it is known as "nomadic identity" here.

It was first implemented by Friendica creator @Mike Macgirvin ?️ in the Zot protocol in 2011 and in a Friendica fork named Red in 2012, later renamed into the Red Matrix, eventually reworked and renamed into Hubzilla in 2015.

Proof: This Hubzilla channel of mine actually simultaneously resides on two servers.

(Almost) everything that Mike has made afterwards, forks and forks of forks of Hubzilla, used to have or still have nomadic identity implemented.

His streams repository contains a fork of a fork... of Hubzilla that intentionally has no name, and that offers nomadic identity via the Nomad protocol with better compatibility with non-nomadic ActivityPub. In July, it had decentralised IDs as per FEP-ef61 (see also here) implemented, a first step by Mike to fully implement nomadic identity in ActivityPub.

Forte, Mike's most recent fork from August, had all support for Nomad and Zot6 removed and only uses ActivityPub anymore while still offering nomadic identity. To my best knowledge, however, it has yet to be declared stable enough to be daily-driven, and it has no public instances.

Other than all this, a non-public development version of @silverpill's Mitra has nomadic identity via ActivityPub in development. I'm not sure whether FEP-ef61 is implemented in the release version yet. It's the only Fediverse project aiming to implement nomadic identity which Mike Macgirvin has nothing directly to do with.

The ultimate goal is to be able to clone a Fediverse identity across project borders. Only considering stable releases, it's currently only possible to clone Hubzilla channels within Hubzilla, using Zot6, or (streams) channels within (streams), using Nomad.

Unfortunately, Mike has officially retired from Fediverse development and only occasionally submits code to the streams repository and Forte anymore.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #DecentralizedIdentity #NomadicIdentity #ActivityPub #FEP_ef61 #Zot #Zot6 #Nomad #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Mitra

@Scott M. Stolz

I am not sure if Solid has the concept of clones or syncing,

As far as I can see, it doesn't. It works wholly differently from nomadic identity.

Currently, Hubzilla hubs are like clients with full data storage that sync their data peer-to-peer.

Now imagine Hubzilla hubs being thin clients with no data storage whatsoever. Next to these hubs, there's another kind of server where your data is stored. Let's call it data server. It's fully independent from the hubs where you have your channel.

You can have as many instances of your identity on as many thin client hubs as you like. One goes down, doesn't matter, you've got more. But all your data is stored on one data server. With one account. One. Every last one of your channel clones on all those thin client hubs is connected to this one data storage.

You may be able to choose where to park your data. But you can only choose exactly one data server where you want to park your data for all your channel clones. You can not clone or mirror your data storage. You've only ever got one instance of that.

If that server goes bellies-up, have fun starting over from scratch. If you're lucky, you may have a backup. If you don't have an up-to-date backup because you haven't made one in a while, or you've never made one in the first place, well, then you're fucked.

It'll be even more fun if Solid won't let you make backups of your data in the first place.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Zot #Zot6 #Nomad #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Solid

@Haakon Meland Eriksen (Parlementum) Even stranger when you consider that TBL should know that there are Zot, Hubzilla, Nomad and (streams). He was told, and he seemed to acknowledge it.

It's either because he has quickly forgotten about it again, or because he can't imagine that it's in daily use rather than experimental, although even experimental would be much more advanced than Solid, or because he doesn't want to stop his brain-child Solid again, and he wants to push it through and establish it as a standard before the general public learns about Zot and Nomad, Hubzilla and (streams).

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Zot #Zot6 #Nomad #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #TimBernersLee #Solid

Mike Macgirvin, the long-time developer that brought us #Friendica, #Hubzilla, #Streams, and the #Zot protocol, is bringing his most powerful concept to the rest of the #Fediverse: Nomadic Identity.

https://wedistribute.org/2024/03/activitypub-nomadic-identity/

I've decided to look into #HubZilla today.

I've discovered that not only is it a macroblogging platform, it also does file-sharing, chats, wikis, websites, news, and so much more, AND it connects to the #Fediverse over not only #ActivityPub, but even the #Zot and #Diaspora protocols so it can connect to Diaspora instances too. Wow!! :MOULE_Happy:

https://joinfediverse.wiki/Hubzilla

@Jupiter Rowland

#Mastodon will never have full #NomadicIdentity support. That'd require its very structure to be completely overthrown. It would have to introduce the channel model from #Hubzilla and #Streams, essentially making Mastodon more complicated for newbies/X converts to get into. And either #ActivityPub would have to include nomadic identity, or Mastodon would have to switch to #Zot or #Nomad with an external connector for ActivityPub.

It's not as hard as it seem. Mastodon already had the ability to move an identity to a new instance/account. You even get to keep your followers. It is missing the ability to import all of your posts to the new account though, but that could be added without changing how Mastodon works.

But to be nomadic, the identities would need to sync, and that is where they would need to change things significantly. As far as ActivityPub goes, you only need a couple of additional fields and a platform that understands those fields. Streams already provides these fields, but no one else is paying attention to them. But they are there.

It could be done, but if it is done, it would most likely be just Mastodon to Mastodon... And I doubt they will ever be interested in nomadic identity for Mastodon, so it is a non-starter.

I think that the best we could hope for is that other platforms recognize nomadic accounts (i.e. me@example.com and me@example.social are the same person), even if their accounts aren't capable of being nomadic.

@Mark Kraft #Mastodon will never have full #NomadicIdentity support. That'd require its very structure to be completely overthrown. It would have to introduce the channel model from #Hubzilla and #Streams, essentially making Mastodon more complicated for newbies/X converts to get into. And either #ActivityPub would have to include nomadic identity, or Mastodon would have to switch to #Zot or #Nomad with an external connector for ActivityPub.

Even then, using nomadic identity to move elsewhere from Mastodon would not be guaranteed, and using nomadic identity to have a fully synchronous clone of your Mastodon channel on Hubzilla or (streams) would be impossible, having a clone on both more so. Even Hubzilla (Zot6) and (streams) (Zot12 a.k.a. Nomad) aren't fully compatible with one another anymore.