It is interesting looking at users on different platforms and how they deal with replies to their posts.
On one side, you have pre-X Twitter style micro-blogging platforms like Mastodon, which are primarily designed to broadcast your thoughts, and are not really designed for discussions. Many users of these platforms consider people who reply to their post as #replyguys and generally don't like people replying to their posts, especially if someone disagrees with them. And even if they want replies, the UI is not conductive of conversations since people have to actually mention them for them to see the reply. And, ironically, there is no way to prevent someone from replying to your post.
On the other side, you have platforms that are designed for conversations, like Facebook-style platforms and forums, and replies are not only expected, but encouraged. When you don't get replies is when you get worried. And the UI is designed specifically for having conversations, where you can see the entire conversation in a threaded view without someone mentioning you. And, interestingly enough, if you were the one who started the conversation, you can turn off comments (unlike Mastodon).
Completely different paradigms, and completely different user interfaces. What one group sees as a net negative, the other group sees as a net positive.
On one side, you have pre-X Twitter style micro-blogging platforms like Mastodon, which are primarily designed to broadcast your thoughts, and are not really designed for discussions. Many users of these platforms consider people who reply to their post as #replyguys and generally don't like people replying to their posts, especially if someone disagrees with them. And even if they want replies, the UI is not conductive of conversations since people have to actually mention them for them to see the reply. And, ironically, there is no way to prevent someone from replying to your post.
On the other side, you have platforms that are designed for conversations, like Facebook-style platforms and forums, and replies are not only expected, but encouraged. When you don't get replies is when you get worried. And the UI is designed specifically for having conversations, where you can see the entire conversation in a threaded view without someone mentioning you. And, interestingly enough, if you were the one who started the conversation, you can turn off comments (unlike Mastodon).
Completely different paradigms, and completely different user interfaces. What one group sees as a net negative, the other group sees as a net positive.
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I think I was looking on the Twitter-style arrangement as simply less convenient. But sometimes posts on those networks receive hundreds of replies and comments. I am not sure that this would work so well with Hubzilla's conversation style and so I'm thankful that we don't have any celebrities here.
In the stricter, more fundamentalist variant of Mastodon's culture, you are not allowed to reply to anyone whom you aren't mutually connected with, and who hasn't explicitly mentioned you either. For on Mastodon, you should only be able to see a post if you either follow the author, or the author has mentioned you.
Interestingly, this completely ignores the concept of boosts which can flush posts from people whom you've never even heard of into your timeline. But apparently, even then, you aren't allowed to reply to them according to Mastodon fundamentalists.
And it's only Mastodon and its forks that work this way. The entire rest of the Fediverse, Pleroma and its forks, Misskey and its forks and fork-forks, Friendica and its family and so forth, they're all aware of conversations, and they can handle conversations.
In all these places, it's perfectly normal to receive entire discussion threads, including replies from people whom you aren't connected to, and who didn't mention you. And it's perfectly normal to engage in such conversations, even if that means replying to total strangers. Especially on Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte, a family fundamentally designed as Facebook alternatives.
But on the other hand, you have the aforementioned Mastodon fundamentalists. For the majority of these, the Fediverse is only Mastodon anyway. Most of the rest only know from hearsay that there's something else in the Fediverse that isn't Mastodon, and they demand it behave itself exactly like Mastodon because they neither know nor care that it's completely different from Mastodon both technologically and culturally and in purpose. The few who remain see every difference from Mastodon as a bug that needs fixed.
You're right that it's ironic that those who know conversations the best are those who have technical means to prevent replies, and those who don't want there to be conversations are those who don't have anything beyond muting, blocking and calling the mods.
It could be a solution for them to lock out entire Fediverse server applications with a blocklist or even everything that isn't Mastodon with an allowlist. Ironically, again, such a feature is only available on (streams) and Forte, both of which are conversation-friendly. In addition, Hubzilla and (streams) can raise the drawbridge by turning ActivityPub off. And Mastodon is worlds away from having such a feature.
Interestingly, this completely ignores the concept of boosts which can flush posts from people whom you've never even heard of into your timeline. But apparently, even then, you aren't allowed to reply to them according to Mastodon fundamentalists.
And it's only Mastodon and its forks that work this way. The entire rest of the Fediverse, Pleroma and its forks, Misskey and its forks and fork-forks, Friendica and its family and so forth, they're all aware of conversations, and they can handle conversations.
In all these places, it's perfectly normal to receive entire discussion threads, including replies from people whom you aren't connected to, and who didn't mention you. And it's perfectly normal to engage in such conversations, even if that means replying to total strangers. Especially on Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte, a family fundamentally designed as Facebook alternatives.
But on the other hand, you have the aforementioned Mastodon fundamentalists. For the majority of these, the Fediverse is only Mastodon anyway. Most of the rest only know from hearsay that there's something else in the Fediverse that isn't Mastodon, and they demand it behave itself exactly like Mastodon because they neither know nor care that it's completely different from Mastodon both technologically and culturally and in purpose. The few who remain see every difference from Mastodon as a bug that needs fixed.
You're right that it's ironic that those who know conversations the best are those who have technical means to prevent replies, and those who don't want there to be conversations are those who don't have anything beyond muting, blocking and calling the mods.
It could be a solution for them to lock out entire Fediverse server applications with a blocklist or even everything that isn't Mastodon with an allowlist. Ironically, again, such a feature is only available on (streams) and Forte, both of which are conversation-friendly. In addition, Hubzilla and (streams) can raise the drawbridge by turning ActivityPub off. And Mastodon is worlds away from having such a feature.
Jupiter Rowland wrote:
I didn't know that. I assumed it was only Friendica-Hubzilla-Streams-Forte (and Diaspora) that could handle conversations. Interesting.
Scott M. Stolz wrote:
Whenever I see a Mastodon user who wants reply controls, I usually see a response saying that Reply Controls Are Evil. It is really a different way of thinking.
It just struck me that this is analogous to capitalism vs communism. Okay, maybe it's not a very good analogy, but consider:
In the conversational platforms, the "owner" of the conversation has certain rights to control the conversation, and people who don't like that are welcome to start a different conversation which they own.
In Mastodon, the discussion is the communal property of all the participants, and it would be evil for one person to limit the replies -- it would artificially make it appear that everyone aggrees with the one person. (And yet it is perfectly okay to demand that an entire instance get blocked, I guess because that is the community using its democratic rights or something.)
And it's only Mastodon and its forks that work this way. The entire rest of the Fediverse, Pleroma and its forks, Misskey and its forks and fork-forks, Friendica and its family and so forth, they're all aware of conversations, and they can handle conversations.
I didn't know that. I assumed it was only Friendica-Hubzilla-Streams-Forte (and Diaspora) that could handle conversations. Interesting.
Scott M. Stolz wrote:
On one side, you have pre-X Twitter style micro-blogging platforms like Mastodon, which are primarily designed to broadcast your thoughts, and are not really designed for discussions. ... And, ironically, there is no way to prevent someone from replying to your post.
Whenever I see a Mastodon user who wants reply controls, I usually see a response saying that Reply Controls Are Evil. It is really a different way of thinking.
It just struck me that this is analogous to capitalism vs communism. Okay, maybe it's not a very good analogy, but consider:
In the conversational platforms, the "owner" of the conversation has certain rights to control the conversation, and people who don't like that are welcome to start a different conversation which they own.
In Mastodon, the discussion is the communal property of all the participants, and it would be evil for one person to limit the replies -- it would artificially make it appear that everyone aggrees with the one person. (And yet it is perfectly okay to demand that an entire instance get blocked, I guess because that is the community using its democratic rights or something.)
@Bill Statler
Pleroma & Co. and Misskey & Co. are somewhere in-between. But they do seem to know conversations in some way. I'm not sure if they make it possible to follow conversations like Friendica & Co., though.
#FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta
I didn't know that. I assumed it was only Friendica-Hubzilla-Streams-Forte (and Diaspora) that could handle conversations. Interesting.
Pleroma & Co. and Misskey & Co. are somewhere in-between. But they do seem to know conversations in some way. I'm not sure if they make it possible to follow conversations like Friendica & Co., though.
#FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta
@Jupiter Rowland @Bill Statler
Subscribing to a Hubzilla forum from Pleroma gave no good impression.
Subscribing to a Hubzilla forum from Pleroma gave no good impression.
@morph ⌂ From what Mike says about Pleroma, it has a lot of quirks that nobody has ever been able to locate in the code, much less fix.
#FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta
#FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta
Issue goes back 6-7 years and was worked on at various times by Lain, Codnil, and Gleason. All of whom are quite competent developers; but none of whom could find the source of the problem. Basically it rejects all incoming activities from Hubzilla (or later) with a 4xx response. Somebody should probably re-submit it, as I'm sure the original bug is lost in the noise now and there have been a few generations of new devs since then.
Interestingly, somebody using the akkoma fork seems to have found the problem and fixed it - but that fix apparently never made it back upstream.
Interestingly, somebody using the akkoma fork seems to have found the problem and fixed it - but that fix apparently never made it back upstream.
@hosh Deep in Hubzilla's code is forum-style pagination of conversations. I suppose if conversations got so big that they started crashing browser tabs, we'd have to support that again.
@Scott M. Stolz I recall having seen it in action somewhere. Unfortunately, that might clash with a tree-style thread view as available everywhere else that understands conversations. Hubzilla is the only Fediverse server app with a strictly chronological thread view, the only available alternative being single activities, Mastodon-style.
#FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Hubzilla #Conversations
#FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Hubzilla #Conversations
@Jupiter Rowland
The variant that Hubzilla uses has the advantage that all new comments are easy to find.
Nobody has to search the comment tree for new comments.
The variant that Hubzilla uses has the advantage that all new comments are easy to find.
Nobody has to search the comment tree for new comments.
@Hamiller Hubzilla @Jupiter Rowland We might want to look at NodeBB for inspiration. Posts are in chronological order, but replies to posts are also available under each post in collapsed form.
https://community.nodebb.org

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@scott
> Many users of these platforms consider people who reply to their post as replyguys and generally don't like people replying to their posts
This seems to be a fairly recent development. I remember in the early days of Eternal November, I saw a number of posts from newbies celebrating the fact they got more thoughtful replies in the fediverse for than they ever did on Titter.
@scott
> Many users of these platforms consider people who reply to their post as replyguys and generally don't like people replying to their posts
This seems to be a fairly recent development. I remember in the early days of Eternal November, I saw a number of posts from newbies celebrating the fact they got more thoughtful replies in the fediverse for than they ever did on Titter.
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@scott
> especially if someone disagrees with them
This seems to be the crux of the objection to "replyguys". For some people a social space - whether it's a bar or a digital forum - is a place for being agreeable. For me, and I doubt I'm alone, friendly arguing about current events, or philosophy, or tech, is all part of socialising.
I suspect there's a class component to this. That agreeable socialising is a middle class norm, and arguing the toss a working class norm.
@scott
> especially if someone disagrees with them
This seems to be the crux of the objection to "replyguys". For some people a social space - whether it's a bar or a digital forum - is a place for being agreeable. For me, and I doubt I'm alone, friendly arguing about current events, or philosophy, or tech, is all part of socialising.
I suspect there's a class component to this. That agreeable socialising is a middle class norm, and arguing the toss a working class norm.
@Strypey The issue goes a little bit deeper. Not everyone who replies is a reply guy.
But if you reply to someone, and that someone hasn't mentioned you in whatever you want to reply to, and you aren't mutually connected to that someone, then you may be seen as a reply guy. That's because, under these circumstances, that someone's post could not possibly have reached you on Mastodon. Allegedly.
This is already so simplified that it takes boosts out of the equation.
On Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte, however, you're automatically served content that you'd have to go look for on Mastodon. Particularly replies.
On these four, a thread is not piecemeal loosely tied together, Twitter-style. On these four, a thread is an enclosed object with always exactly one post at the top and any number of comments. And if you have the post in your timeline/stream/whatever, you also receive all comments, at least all that come in after you've received the post. To the point of being notified about unread comments under a post, even though the commenters haven't mentioned you, and you aren't connected to any of the commenters. And in fact, Friendica is the only one out of the bunch that hasn't implemented conversation containers yet.
This entire behaviour, however, is largely unknown in the Fediverse. The majority of Mastodon users think the Fediverse is only Mastodon. For most of the rest, everything that isn't Mastodon still works like Mastodon because how could it possibly be any different? And besides, hardly anyone on Mastodon even notices if something does not come from Mastodon.
So if I comment on some Mastodon user's comment on a post from one of my contacts, that Mastodon user may take me for another Mastodon user who has found their comment by searching mastodon.social and then manually importing it into my timeline. For them, there's no other way I could possibly have discovered it, seeing as I don't follow them, and they haven't mentioned me. And before I know it, I'm either blocked, or that user calls the mods, none of whom really knows anything about the Fediverse about Mastodon either.
I'm genuinely surprised that I haven't found a single Mastodon instance yet that has a substantial number of Friendica nodes and Hubzilla hubs blocked because they behave too un-Mastodon-like and completely against Mastodon culture.
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Conversations
But if you reply to someone, and that someone hasn't mentioned you in whatever you want to reply to, and you aren't mutually connected to that someone, then you may be seen as a reply guy. That's because, under these circumstances, that someone's post could not possibly have reached you on Mastodon. Allegedly.
This is already so simplified that it takes boosts out of the equation.
On Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte, however, you're automatically served content that you'd have to go look for on Mastodon. Particularly replies.
On these four, a thread is not piecemeal loosely tied together, Twitter-style. On these four, a thread is an enclosed object with always exactly one post at the top and any number of comments. And if you have the post in your timeline/stream/whatever, you also receive all comments, at least all that come in after you've received the post. To the point of being notified about unread comments under a post, even though the commenters haven't mentioned you, and you aren't connected to any of the commenters. And in fact, Friendica is the only one out of the bunch that hasn't implemented conversation containers yet.
This entire behaviour, however, is largely unknown in the Fediverse. The majority of Mastodon users think the Fediverse is only Mastodon. For most of the rest, everything that isn't Mastodon still works like Mastodon because how could it possibly be any different? And besides, hardly anyone on Mastodon even notices if something does not come from Mastodon.
So if I comment on some Mastodon user's comment on a post from one of my contacts, that Mastodon user may take me for another Mastodon user who has found their comment by searching mastodon.social and then manually importing it into my timeline. For them, there's no other way I could possibly have discovered it, seeing as I don't follow them, and they haven't mentioned me. And before I know it, I'm either blocked, or that user calls the mods, none of whom really knows anything about the Fediverse about Mastodon either.
I'm genuinely surprised that I haven't found a single Mastodon instance yet that has a substantial number of Friendica nodes and Hubzilla hubs blocked because they behave too un-Mastodon-like and completely against Mastodon culture.
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Conversations
@Strypey Interesting thought. I never really considered that, but it may be a factor. Some of my extended family is blue collar and some is white collar, and there certainly is a cultural difference there.
But I mostly blame politicians that seek to divide us.
We used to be able to disagree with stuff and then still be friends and still treat each other with dignity. Now we are told that if someone thinks differently than you, they are the enemy and you must cut off all contact. That is a huge cultural shift, and not a healthy one.
But I mostly blame politicians that seek to divide us.
We used to be able to disagree with stuff and then still be friends and still treat each other with dignity. Now we are told that if someone thinks differently than you, they are the enemy and you must cut off all contact. That is a huge cultural shift, and not a healthy one.
@Jupiter Rowland The differences between interfaces definitely causes a lot of misunderstandings, especially when someone assumes the other person is using the same platform.
That is why I like how Friendica implemented their post interface. On every post or comment, the logo of the platform they are using is shown on their posts so you know if they are using Friendica, Mastodon, Hubzilla, or whatever.
That is why I like how Friendica implemented their post interface. On every post or comment, the logo of the platform they are using is shown on their posts so you know if they are using Friendica, Mastodon, Hubzilla, or whatever.
Streams shows the name of the platform with each post or comment: Hubzilla, Mastodon, etc. (Which is amusing when it's a streams platform, because the word "streams" is never mentioned -- my platform is "Bunny of Doom".)
I think Mike said this was an old feature, so maybe it's still present in Hubzilla and could be reactivated.
I think Mike said this was an old feature, so maybe it's still present in Hubzilla and could be reactivated.
@Scott M. Stolz But in order for Mastodon users to understand why you've just replied to their reply, they have to know two things.
One, that you are on Hubzilla. And not on Mastodon. A logo could solve this.
But two, that Hubzilla is not a Mastodon instance. And not a Mastodon fork either. That Hubzilla works vastly differently from Mastodon. And that this is not a bug, but an intentional design feature. That there is stuff in the Fediverse outside of Mastodon, fully federated with Mastodon, that nonetheless does not work exactly like Mastodon.
Now keep in mind that poll where three out of four voters declared that they had never even heard of the existence of Hubzilla before that poll. This poll was obviously held in a bubble in which more people than average know about Hubzilla, so the real figures have to be even more extreme.
And, again, just because someone has heard the name "Hubzilla" or seen the logo somewhere, doesn't mean they know what it is and how it works.
CC: @Strypey
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Hubzilla
One, that you are on Hubzilla. And not on Mastodon. A logo could solve this.
But two, that Hubzilla is not a Mastodon instance. And not a Mastodon fork either. That Hubzilla works vastly differently from Mastodon. And that this is not a bug, but an intentional design feature. That there is stuff in the Fediverse outside of Mastodon, fully federated with Mastodon, that nonetheless does not work exactly like Mastodon.
Now keep in mind that poll where three out of four voters declared that they had never even heard of the existence of Hubzilla before that poll. This poll was obviously held in a bubble in which more people than average know about Hubzilla, so the real figures have to be even more extreme.
And, again, just because someone has heard the name "Hubzilla" or seen the logo somewhere, doesn't mean they know what it is and how it works.
CC: @Strypey
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Hubzilla
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All of this technical detail is true @jupiter_rowland, but beneath all of this is the point you made in your earlier comments. That there is a huge social gulf between the vanilla Mastodon user, who sees themselves as using a social network called Mastodon, and the fedizen who understands that Mastodon is the dominant software in the larger social network we call the fediverse.
@scott
All of this technical detail is true @jupiter_rowland, but beneath all of this is the point you made in your earlier comments. That there is a huge social gulf between the vanilla Mastodon user, who sees themselves as using a social network called Mastodon, and the fedizen who understands that Mastodon is the dominant software in the larger social network we call the fediverse.
@scott
@hosh This means that I keep discovering new platforms on my Friendica account that were previously completely unknown to me. That's very exciting.
@hosh
Hubzilla already has the database fields for it, but it is not fully implemented.
In the
In the
If we detected the name of other platforms, via webfinger or other means, there are existing database fields that can store this information. Then it would just be a matter of displaying it in the UI.
platform logo with post: that sounds like a nice feature to have.
Hubzilla already has the database fields for it, but it is not fully implemented.
In the
sites
table, it records the name of project in the site_project
field. But right now it is only recording Hubzilla and Streams sites names. So "Bunny of Doom" is one of the "projects" listed (which is a Streams instance where the project name was changed). But any other platform, this field is being left blank. In the
xchan
table, where it lists all of the channels your server knows about, it has a field called xchan_network
that tells you if they are using Zot6, ActivityPub, or Diaspora. You can see this displayed in the directory. If we detected the name of other platforms, via webfinger or other means, there are existing database fields that can store this information. Then it would just be a matter of displaying it in the UI.
Conversation Features
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