Zot is the Third Party Candidate in a Race Between ActivityPub and AT Protocol -

Scott M. Stolz

Entrepreneur & Author

Authorship Studio is part of a decentralized social media network powered by Hubzilla.

Zot is the Third Party Candidate in a Race Between ActivityPub and AT Protocol

Thu, 31 Oct 2024 17:56:09 -0500

scott@authorship.studio

@Mike Masnick ✅ (Mastodon) aka @Mike Masnick (Bluesky) wrote an interesting article called Some (Slightly Biased) Thoughts On The State Of Decentralized Social Media which stirred up some passionate discussions in this thread on Mastodon.

As someone who advocates for Hubzilla, which uses the Zot Protocol, it usually feels like we are a third party candidate in a popularity contest between ActivityPub and AT Protocol, or between Mastodon and Bluesky.

And I do have to chuckle when y'all mention "new and innovative features" that have existed in Hubzilla 5 to 10 years before you even started working on your variations. For example, nomadic identity has been in Zot Protocol before Bluesky even started. It might be older than Mastodon too, I am not sure. We even have federated single sign on using OpenWebAuth.

So, this has gotten me to thinking about why protocols become popular, and what is necessary to propagate ideas, philosophies, and systems. Compared to Hubzilla's long history, I am relatively new to Hubzilla and the social web, so I have the unique ability to compare what works and what doesn't between protocols, platforms, and their advocates.

A lot of interesting things to think about.

Zot Protocol ActivityPub AT Protocol Commentary

show all 18 comments

Thu, 31 Oct 2024 18:25:27 -0500

Bill Statler

billstatler@forum.statler.ws

I got a cynical laugh when Evan Prodromou told Mike Masnick "It was not my intention to make you feel good about your poor choices" for associating with the venture capitalists backing Bluesky -- when Evan is happy to associate with Meta.

Do we have a name for the Zot/Nomad zone? Maybe "Rediverse", in reference to Hubzilla's ancestor?

Thu, 31 Oct 2024 18:32:54 -0500

FenTiger

fentiger@zotum.net

@Bill Statler I'll admit that I've been calling it the "Macgirverse" in my own notes. ;)

Thu, 31 Oct 2024 19:26:41 -0500

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

For example, nomadic identity has been in Zot Protocol before Bluesky even started. It might be older than Mastodon too, I am not sure.

Nomadic identity is older than Mastodon. By some four years.

Mastodon is from 2016. Nomadic identity was invented in 2011 and first implemented on Red in 2012. First implementation in a stable release was in 2013 when the Red Matrix got stable. Oh, and Hubzilla itself is from 2015; it pre-dates Mastodon by ten months AFAIR.

It's fair to mention that this Hubzilla channel which I'm writing from right now has had a nomadic clone since before the Twitter Migration and before Bluesky was launched.

CC: @Mike Masnick ✅ @Mike Masnick

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #NomadicIdentity

Thu, 31 Oct 2024 20:34:02 -0500 last edited: Thu, 31 Oct 2024 20:36:41 -0500

Scott M. Stolz

scott@authorship.studio

The interesting thing about all of this is that I can analyze what AT protocol and ActivityPub are doing that works and what does not work, and then figure out a strategy for Hubzilla and OpenWebAuth.

I didn't mention Zot in the paragraph above, because I don't think we should promote Zot protocol as competitor to ActivityPub. I think of it as more of an alternative that can innovate faster, which can be used to put pressure on ActivityPub and AT Protocol to innovate. Since Hubzilla supports both Zot and ActivityPub, it can benefit from innovations from both protocols.

Hubzilla has a long way to go to compete with Mastodon and other larger platforms. But it can be done. Especially if you use them as case studies to learn from.

Thu, 31 Oct 2024 20:35:09 -0500

Scott M. Stolz

scott@authorship.studio

Ultimately I would like all of the major protocols to be bridged, so we can all communicate with each other. Having multiple protocols competing with each other is a good thing, because it forces them to innovate or fall into obscurity.

As far as privacy and safety goes, instead of blocking entire protocols, the bigger threat is individual servers and individual users, who are bad actors. They need to be blocked regardless of protocol they run on.

Thu, 31 Oct 2024 20:53:38 -0500

Mike Macgirvin 🖥️

mikedev@fediversity.site

Streams bridges ActivityPub ids (both fixed and portable), Zot6, and Nomad identities. I never tried to federate with Bluesky because it's centralised and that frankly does not interest me.

Thu, 31 Oct 2024 21:01:18 -0500

Scott M. Stolz

scott@authorship.studio

@Mike Macgirvin 🖥️ We don't even have to worry about what AT Protocol is doing. Only the bridges themselves would have to translate between protocols. It would be something that @Bridgy Fed and Friendica (with its AT protocol addon) have to think about, not us.

Fri, 01 Nov 2024 02:17:35 -0500

Mario Vavti

mario@hub.somaton.com

@Jupiter Rowland red -> hubzilla was really only a rename of the project. There was no fork involved.

Fri, 01 Nov 2024 04:03:44 -0500 last edited: Fri, 01 Nov 2024 15:51:51 -0500

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

chris@im.allmendenetz.de

@Scott M. Stolz

Hubzilla has a long way to go to compete with Mastodon and other larger platforms. But it can be done.

:-)

If you would just start locking at it all from a different angle you could also come to a quid different concussion.

After all Hubzilla with all the included features and its architecture is not that much a "platform" which competes with "Mastodon and other larger platforms" but a decentralized community Content Management System.

The focus of a decentralized community CMS with social media capabilities is very different to a SM platform for just messaging or posting photos.

That is way I see Hubzilla playing in a quid different league - and there HZ is ahead of all others.

We can do things all other project which are subject to the Masnick article can't do - and likely never will because the focus is a different one.

Fri, 01 Nov 2024 04:29:14 -0500

Scott M. Stolz

scott@authorship.studio

@𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼 Hubzilla can be configured in a lot of ways, so it can meet a variety of needs. For example, it could be set up as a Facebook clone, or it could be set up as a blog, or it could be set up as a website, or it could be set up as a specialty app.

And when I say compete, I mean the "number of installations." I don't mean "copy what they are doing." Hubzilla will have a different audience, and that is a plus in my opinion.

But I do think the technology that is pioneered by Hubzilla and its predecessors should spread more than it has.

Fri, 01 Nov 2024 05:48:49 -0500

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

chris@im.allmendenetz.de

@Scott M. Stolz

I do think the technology that is pioneered by Hubzilla and its predecessors should spread more than it has.

:-)

now is is a quid different statement than:

Hubzilla has a long way to go to compete with Mastodon and other larger platforms. But it can be done.

People having a hard time to understand what they get in their hands if they start digging into HZ. A compression to Masto, Bluesky & Co does not help to communicate the things what HZ is about.

Fri, 01 Nov 2024 07:42:34 -0500

Scott M. Stolz

scott@authorship.studio

@𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼 We are still competing for users in the social media space is what I meant.

For example, if I set up a public hub and give it a user interface that is intuitive and inviting, I am directly competing with Mastodon and Bluesky and other platforms for those users.

And the number of users a platform has is one of the metrics in which platforms get measured.

Being different is part of competing with other platforms. If we weren't different, there would be no reason to chose one platform over another.

And, yes, a major issue is that we are not effectively communicating what Hubzilla is and can do.

Fri, 01 Nov 2024 11:06:52 -0500 last edited: Fri, 01 Nov 2024 11:23:48 -0500

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

chris@im.allmendenetz.de

@Scott M. Stolz

We are still competing for users

i see this different. First of all i do not like to think of "users" but more of "stakeholders". and ... HZ does offer options for communities which have to be ready and sattelt for it all...

if I set up a public hub and give it a user interface that is intuitive and inviting, I am directly competing with Mastodon and Bluesky and other platforms for those users.

Are you ? - you will likely lose in this game...

And the number of users a platform has is one of the metrics in which platforms get measured.

measured by whom ? a software should be measured in terms of what it can do for you and not by the number of people who else use it. But true - the more stakeholders a software has, the more support for development can be given. It is quid nice to have the option so share with many other stakeholders. so yes - we looking for more stakeholders.

a major issue is that we are not effectively communicating what Hubzilla is and can do.

Yes - this is the main point - and if i shell tell you the true - i for my self still find it out just by using the software regularly - day by day... there is so much to learn for me... and very few people really have the overview over all the options, i think. HZ is a open system in contrary to a limited one as Masto & Co

@Der Pepe (Hubzilla) ⁂ ⚝ wrote down a new and good documentation lately.... lots of pages to read and study... this does help a lot. Now we want to ask a TWITTER / X refugee to read all this? He will still just say thanks and likely will try an other system where i gets a feeling of having control over it all in 15 minutes. This is why i think we will never be competing with Masto or Bluesky. Or if we try there is just no change to win there.

HZ is more like LibreOffice or GIMP ... lots of time needed to get a Master.

Every try to sell a complex system as a simple thing will likely fail even if you polish the system up

HZ is for communities with special demands and institutions and individuals who like to grow their own tomatoes, rather than be a customer of wholesalers.

Fri, 01 Nov 2024 11:36:59 -0500 last edited: Fri, 01 Nov 2024 11:37:34 -0500

Der Pepe (Hubzilla) ⁂ ⚝

pepecyb@hub.hubzilla.hu

@𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

Now we want to ask a TWITTER / X refugee to read all this? He will still just say thanks and likely will try an other system where i gets a feeling of having control over it all in 15 minutes

That's why I recently started an trial... with a self-created unofficial (German-language) Join Hubzilla page. In addition to the pure social media aspect, the main features of Hubzilla are presented there quite briefly and strikingly and there is a Join button that leads to a hub overview and a quick guide for registration.

And that's what I've been posting these days...

e.g. ‘Recommendation for a photo management? Of course: Hubzilla’ which led to the website by clicking on it.

Perhaps something similar should also be set up in English.

The point is to get the normal user to try Hubzilla as Fediverse access... and then you can inform such users (who must also receive appropriate support and help) about the further possibilities.

On the other hand, you could also lure users with the CMS capabilities (different target group) and give them the bonus of social media capabilities on top.

Fri, 01 Nov 2024 12:00:41 -0500

Scott M. Stolz

scott@authorship.studio

@𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

i see this different. First of all i do not like to think of "users" but more of "stakeholders". and ... HZ does offer options for communities which have to be ready and sattelt for it all...

Users can be stakeholders, and in this case are stakeholders. A person can be both.

Fri, 01 Nov 2024 15:45:59 -0500

𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼

chris@im.allmendenetz.de

@Der Pepe (Hubzilla) ⁂ ⚝

On the other hand, you could also lure users with the CMS capabilities (different target group) and give them the bonus of social media capabilities on top.

all what i see under

https://hubzilla.hu/was-koennen-sie-mit-hubzilla-machen.html are the features of a cms with social media capabilities... if i'm just interested in just one of the features i will be better of if i pick a specialized fedi app - like e.g. pixelfed for a photo gallery

Fri, 01 Nov 2024 19:57:52 -0500

Scott M. Stolz

scott@authorship.studio

@𝓒𝓱𝓻𝓲𝓼 One possible way to deal with that is providing custom themes for specific use cases, and having an easy set up wizard when they first install Hubzilla.

And then have examples sites that are set up that way to demonstrate what can be done in Hubzilla.

Fri, 01 Nov 2024 20:04:11 -0500

Scott M. Stolz

scott@authorship.studio

To me, Hubzilla is more of an app I can build upon. Most of the existing addons and features are very simple, almost as if they are proofs of concepts in some cases. If I remember right, some things, like the articles addon, were actually intended to be a proof of concept, not a full app.

I look at Hubzilla as being closer to WordPress in the sense that you can post content in a variety of ways and you can extend it. What makes it powerful is OpenWebAuth, built-in decentralized social media, and the addon system.

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