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Sun, 29 Sep 2024 21:44:54 -0500
last edited: Mon, 30 Sep 2024 21:45:01 -0500
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Evan Prodromou
evan@cosocial.ca
Is the war in Gaza a civil war?
#EvanPoll
#poll
Strong yes
11 Votes | 3%
Qualified yes
16 Votes | 4%
Qualified no
79 Votes | 21%
Strong no
279 Votes | 72%
385 Votes in total
Poll has ended
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21 comments
Sun, 29 Sep 2024 21:47:07 -0500
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Evan Prodromou
evan@cosocial.ca
Some links for the inevitable definition demanders:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war?wprov=sfla1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_war?wprov=sfla1
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Sun, 29 Sep 2024 21:52:22 -0500
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Chris Alemany🇺🇦🇨🇦🇪🇸
chris@mstdn.chrisalemany.ca
@evan
my reasoning:
Israel is an occupying power over the Palestinian Territories which are recognized by International bodies as not a part of Israel, so it cannot be a civil war.
Also because the Palestinian people in Gaza have absolutely no standing in Israel politically, as citizens or otherwise, then again it can’t be a civil war.
Since Hamas is a governing body in Gaza the war can really only be described as a conflict between a nation-state and sub-national state.
So, strong no.
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Sun, 29 Sep 2024 22:59:50 -0500
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Amir E. Aharoni
aharoni@wikis.world
@evan
Of course it isn't.
There was something very similar to a civil war in Gaza in 2007, and it's not remembered much.
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Sun, 29 Sep 2024 23:05:01 -0500
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Evan Prodromou
evan@cosocial.ca
@aharoni
not a "one state reality" fan?
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Sun, 29 Sep 2024 23:36:24 -0500
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Amir E. Aharoni
aharoni@wikis.world
@evan
That's not what I said, and I'm not even sure what "one state reality" means. It's not a term I remember seeing.
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Mon, 30 Sep 2024 06:56:24 -0500
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Evan Prodromou
evan@cosocial.ca
@aharoni
"The term one-state reality describes the belief that the current situation in Israel/Palestine is de facto a single state."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-state_solution?wprov=sfla1
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Mon, 30 Sep 2024 06:58:48 -0500
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Evan Prodromou
evan@cosocial.ca
@aharoni
if Israel/Palestine is de facto a single state, and if a civil war is a war between organized groups within the same state, I think there's a fair case to be made that the War in Gaza is a civil war.
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Mon, 30 Sep 2024 06:58:49 -0500
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Irenerd
irenerd@col.social
@evan
is genocide
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Mon, 30 Sep 2024 07:29:04 -0500
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Evan Prodromou
evan@cosocial.ca
@irenerd
they're not mutually exclusive. Many genocides have taken place as part of a civil war.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocides?wprov=sfla1
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Mon, 30 Sep 2024 08:27:24 -0500
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Amir E. Aharoni
aharoni@wikis.world
@evan
OK... I wasn't familiar with this term. That's a very, very big if. It's an oversimplification, and it's somewhere on the spectrum between useless and harmful. So yes, I guess you could say I'm not a fan of this term. Not necessarily because it's not true; *in some ways* it is true. But I'm mostly not a fan because the actual reality of the number of states on that land cannot be usefully described in one microblogging post.
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Mon, 30 Sep 2024 09:08:01 -0500
last edited: Mon, 30 Sep 2024 09:13:38 -0500
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Scott M. Stolz
scott@authorship.studio
I'll put on my political science hat for a moment.
Since Palestine and Israel are administered separately and have separate leaders (
de facto
), for classification purposes, I would say that the war and fighting between the two is not a civil war. On the other hand, armed insurrection of Palestinians who oppose the current Palestinian regime would be engaged in civil war or rebellion.
That would be the technical definition, and not necessarily the political one.
Since some claim that Israel and Palestine are one state, they would claim it was a civil war based on legalities (
de jure
).
So there is a distinct difference between
de facto
and
de jure
in this case. Or put more simply, a difference between reality and what's on paper.
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Mon, 30 Sep 2024 09:08:27 -0500
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Evan Prodromou
evan@cosocial.ca
@aharoni
Yeah, I get that.
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Mon, 30 Sep 2024 13:27:46 -0500
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Evan Prodromou
evan@cosocial.ca
@scott
Interesting!
I think the argument of the "one state reality" is that the territory that has been occupied and managed by a single government for almost 60 years, since 1967, is functionally a single state.
Even the proposed "two-state solution" from Oslo supposes a less-than-sovereign state in the West Bank and Gaza, with no military or border control.
Anyway, thanks for the in-depth response.
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Mon, 30 Sep 2024 15:54:51 -0500
last edited: Mon, 30 Sep 2024 16:11:29 -0500
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Scott M. Stolz
scott@authorship.studio
@
Evan Prodromou
It's like the argument about whether Taiwan is an independent country or not. On paper, there is only one China. But the reality is that the mainland and Taiwan are
de facto
two different countries, with two different governments, and two different economies.
And what is really interesting is that the claim goes both ways. Most people know the People's Republic of China (PRC) claims Taiwan, but most people don't know that the Republic of China (ROC), that currently governs Taiwan, has never officially renounced its claim on the mainland. People forget that the Republic of China (ROC) was the previous mainland government driven out by the communists.
And, the funny part is that the United States government exploits this fact by agreeing with the PRC that there is only one China. What the U.S. refuses to say is which government it believes has the legitimate claim.
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1
Evan Prodromou
Mon, 30 Sep 2024 16:04:54 -0500
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Scott M. Stolz
scott@authorship.studio
@
Evan Prodromou
I'll let people judge for themselves, but it comes down to this question:
Is Palestine being treated as an occupied territory, or is it being treated as equals with the same rights and privileges?
Your answer to that will tell you if they are
de facto
one state or two.
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Mon, 30 Sep 2024 16:07:45 -0500
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Evan Prodromou
evan@cosocial.ca
@scott
I disagree that this is a good rubric; I think there are sadly many examples in the world where a population are not treated with equal rights, and yet we consider them part of the same state.
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Mon, 30 Sep 2024 16:19:53 -0500
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Tony Hoyle
tony@toot.hoyle.me.uk
@evan
A similar question would be was the american war of independence a civil war. I looked it up and apparently, from the documents of the time, it was considered so, even if it wouldn't be now. So to be consistent you'd have to consider gaza (as an occupied territory) a civil war.
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Mon, 30 Sep 2024 16:23:49 -0500
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Lee 🌏
MrLee@aus.social
@evan
These would be a more accurate description.
Genocide
Land Grab
Apartheid
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Mon, 30 Sep 2024 16:24:57 -0500
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Scott M. Stolz
scott@authorship.studio
@
Evan Prodromou
True. And we also have to consider the political science terms of nation, nation-state, state, union, federation, etc.
On the flip side, one could argue that it is a multi-state federation, with various territories or states within that federation. Similar to how the U.S. is a state on the international level, but also composed of states on the federal level. Or how the U.S. federal government administers territories, districts, and Native American reservations that are not states.
It definitely can be argued both ways.
And we also have to consider that there is a lot of disputed claims to territory in the region. I am not an expert in the region, so I am not going to chime in and say who's claims are legitimate or not.
The whole region is a mess, and there is a lot of senseless killing as a result of that.
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Evan Prodromou
Mon, 30 Sep 2024 16:37:03 -0500
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Mark Darbyshire
markdarb@mastodon.social
@evan
Researching my answer for this poll, I'm sad but not surprised to see which countries have and haven't recognised the State of Palestine:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine#/media/File:Palestine_recognition_only.svg
Case in point: my country supports a two-state solution but doesn't recognise Palestine as a country.
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Mon, 30 Sep 2024 18:05:26 -0500
last edited: Mon, 30 Sep 2024 21:42:35 -0500
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Scott M. Stolz
scott@authorship.studio
Remember, the winners write history. So if the government wins, they'll tell you that it is a rebellion or civil war. If the rebels win, they'll tell you that it's a revolution or war for independence.
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