11 months ago
Recently, there has been several incidents of toxic behavior from Mastodon users (threats, harassment, doxing, or worse) directed at developers and outsiders, and many have pointed out that, to outsiders, Mastodon can feel unwelcoming (and even toxic). Some go so far as to say that Mastodon's culture is toxic.
This is contrary to many people's claims that Mastodon is nicer and better than other platforms and is a safe space from abuse. Many people have countered that claim by saying that you are only safe from abuse if you are from certain tribes or classes of people, and that if you are on the "good list" they will protect you, and if you are on the "bad list," they will ban you or even attack you. And some ethnic minorities actually feel unwelcome on Mastodon because of this.
I try to avoid placing labels on a broad group composed of millions of people, because not everyone fits the stereotype, and innocent people get mislabeled in the process. But, at the same time, I have to acknowledge that there are toxic people on Mastodon that ruin the experience.
I think, like many things, that the loudest are not necessarily the majority. And when you have a case of loud bullies demanding that everyone do it their way, the safest thing to do is to just keep your head down, hoping that they don't notice you. So people who disagree with their behavior don't say anything since they don't want to be the next target of abuse.
There is a sad statistic that people who have been abused are more likely to become abusers themselves. Not all of them, obviously, but people who grow up in abusive environments unfortunately pick up the same traits and tactics as the abusers, often not realizing that they, themselves, are using abusive tactics. They often use the justification that if they do it to their enemy, it is not abuse. What they don't realize is that the people who abused them thought the same way. They are literally copying their abuser's behavior except they switched who the target is.
The people who end the cycle of abuse are the ones who made a conscious decision to not be that way. They decide to take the high road instead of the low road. They decide to be kind and loving, instead of mean and hateful. They decide to follow principles instead of protecting someone or attacking someone based on which tribe they belong to.
How this relates to the Fediverse and Mastodon is that many people came here to escape the abuse. So when the outsiders come in, they become afraid, since they fear being abused again. A natural reaction, especially when the abuse was traumatic for them.
But, unfortunately some of those people are examples of the abused becoming abusers, and they lash out in unhealthy, counterproductive, and toxic ways, perhaps because they never learned how to deal with situations like this in a healthy way.
There are things we can do to protect people from abuse, and many of us are committed to stopping abuse. But to do that, we have to stop looking at abuse from an "us versus them" viewpoint. If we really want to effectively address abuse online, we have to address the behavior, regardless of who is engaging in it, while at the same time being compassionate with people, since many of the abusers have been abused themselves.
We can build a safer fediverse for people. Part of that is creating better tools that allow people to better protect themselves from abusers. But part of that is changing how we deal with abuse itself. Just because someone was abused, that does not mean they get a free pass to engage in abuse themselves. That just leads to more attacks and counterattacks, which is the opposite of what we want.
So, is Mastodon's culture toxic? I don't know. But I do know that we have to deal with toxic behavior, regardless of where it comes from.
This is contrary to many people's claims that Mastodon is nicer and better than other platforms and is a safe space from abuse. Many people have countered that claim by saying that you are only safe from abuse if you are from certain tribes or classes of people, and that if you are on the "good list" they will protect you, and if you are on the "bad list," they will ban you or even attack you. And some ethnic minorities actually feel unwelcome on Mastodon because of this.
I try to avoid placing labels on a broad group composed of millions of people, because not everyone fits the stereotype, and innocent people get mislabeled in the process. But, at the same time, I have to acknowledge that there are toxic people on Mastodon that ruin the experience.
I think, like many things, that the loudest are not necessarily the majority. And when you have a case of loud bullies demanding that everyone do it their way, the safest thing to do is to just keep your head down, hoping that they don't notice you. So people who disagree with their behavior don't say anything since they don't want to be the next target of abuse.
There is a sad statistic that people who have been abused are more likely to become abusers themselves. Not all of them, obviously, but people who grow up in abusive environments unfortunately pick up the same traits and tactics as the abusers, often not realizing that they, themselves, are using abusive tactics. They often use the justification that if they do it to their enemy, it is not abuse. What they don't realize is that the people who abused them thought the same way. They are literally copying their abuser's behavior except they switched who the target is.
The people who end the cycle of abuse are the ones who made a conscious decision to not be that way. They decide to take the high road instead of the low road. They decide to be kind and loving, instead of mean and hateful. They decide to follow principles instead of protecting someone or attacking someone based on which tribe they belong to.
How this relates to the Fediverse and Mastodon is that many people came here to escape the abuse. So when the outsiders come in, they become afraid, since they fear being abused again. A natural reaction, especially when the abuse was traumatic for them.
But, unfortunately some of those people are examples of the abused becoming abusers, and they lash out in unhealthy, counterproductive, and toxic ways, perhaps because they never learned how to deal with situations like this in a healthy way.
There are things we can do to protect people from abuse, and many of us are committed to stopping abuse. But to do that, we have to stop looking at abuse from an "us versus them" viewpoint. If we really want to effectively address abuse online, we have to address the behavior, regardless of who is engaging in it, while at the same time being compassionate with people, since many of the abusers have been abused themselves.
We can build a safer fediverse for people. Part of that is creating better tools that allow people to better protect themselves from abusers. But part of that is changing how we deal with abuse itself. Just because someone was abused, that does not mean they get a free pass to engage in abuse themselves. That just leads to more attacks and counterattacks, which is the opposite of what we want.
So, is Mastodon's culture toxic? I don't know. But I do know that we have to deal with toxic behavior, regardless of where it comes from.
11 months ago
Recently, there has been several incidents of toxic behavior from Mastodon users (threats, harassment, doxing, or worse) directed at developers and outsiders, and many have pointed out that, to outsiders, Mastodon can feel unwelcoming (and even toxic). Some go so far as to say that Mastodon's culture is toxic.
This is contrary to many people's claims that Mastodon is nicer and better than other platforms and is a safe space from abuse. Many people have countered that claim by saying that you are only safe from abuse if you are from certain tribes or classes of people, and that if you are on the "good list" they will protect you, and if you are on the "bad list," they will ban you or even attack you. And some ethnic minorities actually feel unwelcome on Mastodon because of this.
I try to avoid placing labels on a broad group composed of millions of people, because not everyone fits the stereotype, and innocent people get mislabeled in the process. But, at the same time, I have to acknowledge that there are toxic people on Mastodon that ruin the experience.
I think, like many things, that the loudest are not necessarily the majority. And when you have a case of loud bullies demanding that everyone do it their way, the safest thing to do is to just keep your head down, hoping that they don't notice you. So people who disagree with their behavior don't say anything since they don't want to be the next target of abuse.
There is a sad statistic that people who have been abused are more likely to become abusers themselves. Not all of them, obviously, but people who grow up in abusive environments unfortunately pick up the same traits and tactics as the abusers, often not realizing that they, themselves, are using abusive tactics. They often use the justification that if they do it to their enemy, it is not abuse. What they don't realize is that the people who abused them thought the same way. They are literally copying their abuser's behavior except they switched who the target is.
The people who end the cycle of abuse are the ones who made a conscious decision to not be that way. They decide to take the high road instead of the low road. They decide to be kind and loving, instead of mean and hateful. They decide to follow principles instead of protecting someone or attacking someone based on which tribe they belong to.
How this relates to the Fediverse and Mastodon is that many people came here to escape the abuse. So when the outsiders come in, they become afraid, since they fear being abused again. A natural reaction, especially when the abuse was traumatic for them.
But, unfortunately some of those people are examples of the abused becoming abusers, and they lash out in unhealthy, counterproductive, and toxic ways, perhaps because they never learned how to deal with situations like this in a healthy way.
There are things we can do to protect people from abuse, and many of us are committed to stopping abuse. But to do that, we have to stop looking at abuse from an "us versus them" viewpoint. If we really want to effectively address abuse online, we have to address the behavior, regardless of who is engaging in it, while at the same time being compassionate with people, since many of the abusers have been abused themselves.
We can build a safer fediverse for people. Part of that is creating better tools that allow people to better protect themselves from abusers. But part of that is changing how we deal with abuse itself. Just because someone was abused, that does not mean they get a free pass to engage in abuse themselves. That just leads to more attacks and counterattacks, which is the opposite of what we want.
So, is Mastodon's culture toxic? I don't know. But I do know that we have to deal with toxic behavior, regardless of where it comes from.
This is contrary to many people's claims that Mastodon is nicer and better than other platforms and is a safe space from abuse. Many people have countered that claim by saying that you are only safe from abuse if you are from certain tribes or classes of people, and that if you are on the "good list" they will protect you, and if you are on the "bad list," they will ban you or even attack you. And some ethnic minorities actually feel unwelcome on Mastodon because of this.
I try to avoid placing labels on a broad group composed of millions of people, because not everyone fits the stereotype, and innocent people get mislabeled in the process. But, at the same time, I have to acknowledge that there are toxic people on Mastodon that ruin the experience.
I think, like many things, that the loudest are not necessarily the majority. And when you have a case of loud bullies demanding that everyone do it their way, the safest thing to do is to just keep your head down, hoping that they don't notice you. So people who disagree with their behavior don't say anything since they don't want to be the next target of abuse.
There is a sad statistic that people who have been abused are more likely to become abusers themselves. Not all of them, obviously, but people who grow up in abusive environments unfortunately pick up the same traits and tactics as the abusers, often not realizing that they, themselves, are using abusive tactics. They often use the justification that if they do it to their enemy, it is not abuse. What they don't realize is that the people who abused them thought the same way. They are literally copying their abuser's behavior except they switched who the target is.
The people who end the cycle of abuse are the ones who made a conscious decision to not be that way. They decide to take the high road instead of the low road. They decide to be kind and loving, instead of mean and hateful. They decide to follow principles instead of protecting someone or attacking someone based on which tribe they belong to.
How this relates to the Fediverse and Mastodon is that many people came here to escape the abuse. So when the outsiders come in, they become afraid, since they fear being abused again. A natural reaction, especially when the abuse was traumatic for them.
But, unfortunately some of those people are examples of the abused becoming abusers, and they lash out in unhealthy, counterproductive, and toxic ways, perhaps because they never learned how to deal with situations like this in a healthy way.
There are things we can do to protect people from abuse, and many of us are committed to stopping abuse. But to do that, we have to stop looking at abuse from an "us versus them" viewpoint. If we really want to effectively address abuse online, we have to address the behavior, regardless of who is engaging in it, while at the same time being compassionate with people, since many of the abusers have been abused themselves.
We can build a safer fediverse for people. Part of that is creating better tools that allow people to better protect themselves from abusers. But part of that is changing how we deal with abuse itself. Just because someone was abused, that does not mean they get a free pass to engage in abuse themselves. That just leads to more attacks and counterattacks, which is the opposite of what we want.
So, is Mastodon's culture toxic? I don't know. But I do know that we have to deal with toxic behavior, regardless of where it comes from.
11 months ago
It seems to me that a safer fediverse should start with smaller servers/instances. Also, people should act in the fediverse just like they would in real life (I should elaborate but I'm in a rush right now, maybe later).
11 months ago
Also, people should act in the fediverse just like they would in real life.
that is true for all platforms; even X/twitter would be a nice place if people behaved responsibly...but they don't, not all of them.
many sheep moved away from X to mastodon and were happy for a while. but it's the wolves' nature to go where the prey is. the fediverse is open, no chance to implement a "no-wolves-policy." means sheep need the ability to put up fences, depending on how vulnerable they feel or are.
users of hubzilla / streams / friendica have the ability to put up such fences, but we're only a small part of the fediverse. mastodon developers must be aware of this, but want to stick to their own approach and keep working with block-lists and such. eventually AP protocol may evolve into something that allows privacy controls, depending on the pressure they feel from the wolves.
the challenge is to keep AP & Zot protocols compatible through these developments. many on the AP side of things seem to feel they are the real or only fediverse and don't spend much thought on compatibility with us, leaving our developers alone with that pressure.
@phanisvara (streams)
The vast majority of Mastodon users as well as users of projects that have been based on ActivityPub from the start or for long enough actually think that the Fediverse is only ActivityPub. They don't even know that there's stuff in the Fediverse that has ActivityPub as an optional secondary protocol. Few know that Hubzilla and (streams) exist, even fewer know that neither of these two is based on ActivityPub.
In fact, many Mastodon users, including some who have joined during the second Twitter migration wave in November, 2022, are fully convinced that the Fediverse is only Mastodon, full stop. And that "Fediverse" and "Mastodon" mean the same.
And I think not exactly few want the Fediverse to only be vanilla Mastodon with its hard-coded 500-character limit. They aren't only against federation with Threads and a bridge to Bluesky, but they don't want all that stuff from Pixelfed to Lemmy to Misskey to Friendica to (streams) around either.
Some vulnerable groups have escaped the harassment on Twitter. Of course, they went to Mastodon and only Mastodon because that's all they knew. But now they're stuck on Mastodon. First, they didn't know that better stuff than Mastodon exists in the Fediverse. If they heard about the existence of that stuff, they didn't know and couldn't imagine that it's better or even that anything in the Fediverse could possibly have features that Mastodon doesn't.
But even now they refuse to move again. For one, there's no easy-peasy way to move an entire Mastodon account with all posts, all connections, even all settings to e.g. (streams). But they won't accept anything less. Besides, even if they did try (streams), they'd nope out quickly due to how (streams) doesn't handle anything like Mastodon. They simply don't want to get used to yet another UI/UX, and the step from Mastodon to (streams) is much bigger than from Twitter to Mastodon.
If you really want to introduce (streams)' safety features to them, you must first soft-fork (streams) into something that's indistinguishable from Mastodon on the surface, that is 100% compatible with the Mastodon API, and that Mastodon servers can be seemlessly migrated to. Then you have to migrate all major Mastodon instances, including and especially mastodon.social, to this soft fork. And then you have to adjust everyone's default settings to "perfect harassment protection, but handles exactly the same as Mastodon" because chances are these people won't even touch their settings.
If Mastodon users want perfect privacy and security, they want it on the very Mastodon instance they're on right now. And they want all these perfect privacy and security features to be on by default, but without meddling with their own use of Mastodon.
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta
many on the AP side of things seem to feel they are the real or only fediverse and don't spend much thought on compatibility with us, leaving our developers alone with that pressure.
The vast majority of Mastodon users as well as users of projects that have been based on ActivityPub from the start or for long enough actually think that the Fediverse is only ActivityPub. They don't even know that there's stuff in the Fediverse that has ActivityPub as an optional secondary protocol. Few know that Hubzilla and (streams) exist, even fewer know that neither of these two is based on ActivityPub.
In fact, many Mastodon users, including some who have joined during the second Twitter migration wave in November, 2022, are fully convinced that the Fediverse is only Mastodon, full stop. And that "Fediverse" and "Mastodon" mean the same.
And I think not exactly few want the Fediverse to only be vanilla Mastodon with its hard-coded 500-character limit. They aren't only against federation with Threads and a bridge to Bluesky, but they don't want all that stuff from Pixelfed to Lemmy to Misskey to Friendica to (streams) around either.
Some vulnerable groups have escaped the harassment on Twitter. Of course, they went to Mastodon and only Mastodon because that's all they knew. But now they're stuck on Mastodon. First, they didn't know that better stuff than Mastodon exists in the Fediverse. If they heard about the existence of that stuff, they didn't know and couldn't imagine that it's better or even that anything in the Fediverse could possibly have features that Mastodon doesn't.
But even now they refuse to move again. For one, there's no easy-peasy way to move an entire Mastodon account with all posts, all connections, even all settings to e.g. (streams). But they won't accept anything less. Besides, even if they did try (streams), they'd nope out quickly due to how (streams) doesn't handle anything like Mastodon. They simply don't want to get used to yet another UI/UX, and the step from Mastodon to (streams) is much bigger than from Twitter to Mastodon.
If you really want to introduce (streams)' safety features to them, you must first soft-fork (streams) into something that's indistinguishable from Mastodon on the surface, that is 100% compatible with the Mastodon API, and that Mastodon servers can be seemlessly migrated to. Then you have to migrate all major Mastodon instances, including and especially mastodon.social, to this soft fork. And then you have to adjust everyone's default settings to "perfect harassment protection, but handles exactly the same as Mastodon" because chances are these people won't even touch their settings.
If Mastodon users want perfect privacy and security, they want it on the very Mastodon instance they're on right now. And they want all these perfect privacy and security features to be on by default, but without meddling with their own use of Mastodon.
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta
not only that. they would also want their posts to be seen and liked by everyone, just not get harassed themselves.
i don't want everybody to leave mastodon and come to Zot, i'm not a preacher. getting the info out that Zot exists is great, but once they know, it's up to them what they want to do. the short articles you're pushing are great, but i'm afraid not many from the mastodon crowd will read them.
a few blog-posts explaining the basics would be good, and when people start whining send them a link. i'm aware of a few posts that can be used, but those are part of conversations here. better would be some straight HTML pages that can be read w/o any authentication, remote or otherwise.
i don't want everybody to leave mastodon and come to Zot, i'm not a preacher. getting the info out that Zot exists is great, but once they know, it's up to them what they want to do. the short articles you're pushing are great, but i'm afraid not many from the mastodon crowd will read them.
a few blog-posts explaining the basics would be good, and when people start whining send them a link. i'm aware of a few posts that can be used, but those are part of conversations here. better would be some straight HTML pages that can be read w/o any authentication, remote or otherwise.
@phanisvara (streams)
Which is a pity, also because they aren't intended as Hubzilla advertising but halfway as warnings. Including the one that'll go out next.
I mean, I wish I could reach more people by using sensitive hashtags. But hardly anyone on Mastodon follows any hashtags. People don't know you can do that on Mastodon because you can't do that on 𝕏.
the short articles you're pushing are great, but i'm afraid not many from the mastodon crowd will read them.
Which is a pity, also because they aren't intended as Hubzilla advertising but halfway as warnings. Including the one that'll go out next.
I mean, I wish I could reach more people by using sensitive hashtags. But hardly anyone on Mastodon follows any hashtags. People don't know you can do that on Mastodon because you can't do that on 𝕏.
...they aren't intended as Hubzilla advertising but halfway as warnings.
i know, you explained that quite well.
I mean, I wish I could reach more people by using sensitive hashtags. But hardly anyone on Mastodon follows any hashtags. People don't know you can do that on Mastodon because you can't do that on 𝕏.
that's the problem. people are lazy, stick to what they know (or think they know). then there's two groups of mastodon-users: those who were there already and the X-refugees, that much most of them know. that there's completely different software and users of that SF, that's too far out of their cosmos.
best chance to reach them is when they're having problems that can't easily be solved with mastodon, but don't even exist in the Zot-universe. for that some reference posts would be good, as i mentioned above somewhere.
11 months ago
The thing about social media is that people are people wherever they go, and people aren't perfect.
And you also have to factor in that everyone has a light side and a dark side... everyone. Some might have bigger percentages of light or bigger percentages of dark, but they can be pushed over to the other side. Someone might be the nicest guy in the world, but if you press the wrong buttons, they might sucker punch you right where it hurts the most (figuratively or literally). And even Darth Vader protected his son in the end.
So abuse, tribalism, elitism, bigotry, discrimination, and prejudice are very human issues. Social media just amplifies that.
So far we have appeased many of the bullies. We say to ourselves "since they were abused, we will let them get away with being abusive." Or we say "since they are abusing the abusers it is okay." Or, mostly, people think to themselves "if I point out that what they are doing is wrong, I will be the next person who is attacked" so they say nothing.
But this tactic has just been as effective as appeasing the Nazis before World War II started. They just get bolder and stronger until they try to take over and start abusing everyone, including innocent people. Because in their eyes, they are the judge, jury, and executioner, and if they don't like you for any reason, you're the enemy.
The tricky part is that we have to fight hate with love, and we have to start firm against abuse but still be compassionate to people. Fighting fire with fire just makes a bigger fire, a fire that consumes more and more innocent people until they become part of the fire and begin to rage too.
So we have to be compassionate. And we will come to the defense of those who are abused. But we have to say no to abuse, regardless of where in comes from.
And part of that is addressing the behavior, while remembering that everyone has a light and dark side, and many abusers we abused themselves. We have to try to bring them back to the light side, if we can. Because going to the dark side leads to suffering.
And you also have to factor in that everyone has a light side and a dark side... everyone. Some might have bigger percentages of light or bigger percentages of dark, but they can be pushed over to the other side. Someone might be the nicest guy in the world, but if you press the wrong buttons, they might sucker punch you right where it hurts the most (figuratively or literally). And even Darth Vader protected his son in the end.
So abuse, tribalism, elitism, bigotry, discrimination, and prejudice are very human issues. Social media just amplifies that.
So far we have appeased many of the bullies. We say to ourselves "since they were abused, we will let them get away with being abusive." Or we say "since they are abusing the abusers it is okay." Or, mostly, people think to themselves "if I point out that what they are doing is wrong, I will be the next person who is attacked" so they say nothing.
But this tactic has just been as effective as appeasing the Nazis before World War II started. They just get bolder and stronger until they try to take over and start abusing everyone, including innocent people. Because in their eyes, they are the judge, jury, and executioner, and if they don't like you for any reason, you're the enemy.
The tricky part is that we have to fight hate with love, and we have to start firm against abuse but still be compassionate to people. Fighting fire with fire just makes a bigger fire, a fire that consumes more and more innocent people until they become part of the fire and begin to rage too.
So we have to be compassionate. And we will come to the defense of those who are abused. But we have to say no to abuse, regardless of where in comes from.
And part of that is addressing the behavior, while remembering that everyone has a light and dark side, and many abusers we abused themselves. We have to try to bring them back to the light side, if we can. Because going to the dark side leads to suffering.
11 months ago
into that you have to add the limits of our own capacity, our strength. otherwise we could just stay on twitter, trying to pull everybody to the light side. (not that i was ever active on twitter; just have an account to follow the occasional thread that's quoted somewhere else.)
but sooner or later our strength is exhausted and we have to pull up the fence around us, no?
but sooner or later our strength is exhausted and we have to pull up the fence around us, no?
@phanisvara (streams) Very true. With social media, you have this weird dynamic of "I want as many people as possible to see my post, but I don't want the people I don't like to see it." That's not how "public posts" work, because, well, public posts can be seen by anyone.
I think that we will have to transition to a new paradigm of being social. Instead of platforms that broadcast everything you say to everyone it can, we transition to connected federated communities, some private some public.
And when I say federated communities, I am not talking about another instance of Mastodon or something else. I mean a community with a membership, and that people can join and be expelled from. Something like a forum or discussion board except federated. That is how you create safe spaces. Clear boundaries.
A lot of people are using the wrong tool for the job. They want a community of like-minded people, but are posting on a broadcast platform instead. That's like broadcasting a private get together with your friends on YouTube. Sure, you can do that, but there are consequences of doing so.
I think that decentralized social media is popular now since social media is all people know. But before social media, we had forum communities, and they were safer and more intimate than modern social media. They started dying because everyone was on these mega-platforms and it was easy to find your friends. That, and people craved attention and internet fame.
But now that we have the technology to federate communities, the barriers to entry are reduced, so I think we will see a resurgence. It will take time, but I think that is the way social needs to go.
Discussion communities and forums (with a membership) won't replace broadcast-style social media, but it will give people a choice of where they want to post. Stuff you want to broadcast, you post on your channel. More sensitive stuff you want to discuss with like-minded people, you go to a community.
I think that we will have to transition to a new paradigm of being social. Instead of platforms that broadcast everything you say to everyone it can, we transition to connected federated communities, some private some public.
And when I say federated communities, I am not talking about another instance of Mastodon or something else. I mean a community with a membership, and that people can join and be expelled from. Something like a forum or discussion board except federated. That is how you create safe spaces. Clear boundaries.
A lot of people are using the wrong tool for the job. They want a community of like-minded people, but are posting on a broadcast platform instead. That's like broadcasting a private get together with your friends on YouTube. Sure, you can do that, but there are consequences of doing so.
I think that decentralized social media is popular now since social media is all people know. But before social media, we had forum communities, and they were safer and more intimate than modern social media. They started dying because everyone was on these mega-platforms and it was easy to find your friends. That, and people craved attention and internet fame.
But now that we have the technology to federate communities, the barriers to entry are reduced, so I think we will see a resurgence. It will take time, but I think that is the way social needs to go.
Discussion communities and forums (with a membership) won't replace broadcast-style social media, but it will give people a choice of where they want to post. Stuff you want to broadcast, you post on your channel. More sensitive stuff you want to discuss with like-minded people, you go to a community.
11 months ago
isn't that exactly what Zot is about? sharing only with who you want in your circle, in a container that can be moderated. it's the best of both worlds because you can post publicly as well if you want. but it requires a bit more thought & understanding than mastodon in it's present shape -- and that's the problem.
11 months ago
I've been reading Neil Howe's work on cycles in society and he does mention cycles in technology. I recognize that in what we are seeing. We had a cycle going from big centralized computing moving towards personal computing and now moving back towards centralized computing (but with much more powerful personal "terminals"). In social media, we went from pre-internet dial-up BBSs and individual Internet blogs/forums to big centralized systems. Now we might be on the leading edge of a return to decentralization.
One thing that Howe's work has shown me is that what seems like a linear trend in the short term is usually not linear in the long term.
One thing that Howe's work has shown me is that what seems like a linear trend in the short term is usually not linear in the long term.
@phanisvara (streams) That is exactly what Zot, Hubzilla, and Streams is about. Some of us are working to make it more user friendly. And new theme is in the works and should be released shortly, as well as new documentation.
11 months ago
@scott This coinsides with someone has been following me for a whole freaking year and suspending me or telling the instance admin on any server that I sign up on that I am ruining the fediverse or something like that. Its ridiculous.
To me I don't think I am doing anything wrong. I just like trying out different servers.
To me I don't think I am doing anything wrong. I just like trying out different servers.
@Scott M. Stolz
People do all kinds of stuff with Mastodon even though other Fediverse software is better for that. From podcasts that are MP3 files attached to Mastodon toots to groups grafted onto Mastodon. Even though there's not only Funkwhale, but even a dedicated podcast project named Castopod. And even though group discussions require conversations, and hardly anything in the Fediverse has such a lack of conversation support as Mastodon.
They don't do that because they think Mastodon is the best at it. They do it because Mastodon is all they know. They've spent their first months in the Fediverse thinking the Fediverse is only Mastodon because nobody told them about there being anything else. Either that, or the step from Twitter to Mastodon was so big that they're still recovering from it, and they don't want to learn something new again, so they use what they already know.
And if you tell them there's something better for the job, they refuse to adopt it because they "can't" move away from Mastodon for some reason.
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta
A lot of people are using the wrong tool for the job. They want a community of like-minded people, but are posting on a broadcast platform instead. That's like broadcasting a private get together with your friends on YouTube. Sure, you can do that, but there are consequences of doing so.
People do all kinds of stuff with Mastodon even though other Fediverse software is better for that. From podcasts that are MP3 files attached to Mastodon toots to groups grafted onto Mastodon. Even though there's not only Funkwhale, but even a dedicated podcast project named Castopod. And even though group discussions require conversations, and hardly anything in the Fediverse has such a lack of conversation support as Mastodon.
They don't do that because they think Mastodon is the best at it. They do it because Mastodon is all they know. They've spent their first months in the Fediverse thinking the Fediverse is only Mastodon because nobody told them about there being anything else. Either that, or the step from Twitter to Mastodon was so big that they're still recovering from it, and they don't want to learn something new again, so they use what they already know.
And if you tell them there's something better for the job, they refuse to adopt it because they "can't" move away from Mastodon for some reason.
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta
@Music 4 Life
I think we can be glad that neither Friendica nor Hubzilla nor (streams) supports Mastodon's report feature. Otherwise their instance admins would have a whole lot of reports from Mastodon to ignore, all of which come in because a user on their instance broke some unwritten rule of Mastodon etiquette.
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta
This coinsides with someone has been following me for a whole freaking year and suspending me or telling the instance admin on any server that I sign up on that I am ruining the fediverse or something like that. Its ridiculous.
To me I don't think I am doing anything wrong. I just like trying out different servers.
I think we can be glad that neither Friendica nor Hubzilla nor (streams) supports Mastodon's report feature. Otherwise their instance admins would have a whole lot of reports from Mastodon to ignore, all of which come in because a user on their instance broke some unwritten rule of Mastodon etiquette.
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta
i understand why people don't want to use a separate tool for every other thing they're doing. this gets complicated quick. fortunately hubzilla, also streams, is some sort of swiss army knife, allowing you to do many things with the same tool.
that attracted me to hubzilla first, but eventually i found that i don't really like the website and wiki features, so i'm mainly on streams now.
that attracted me to hubzilla first, but eventually i found that i don't really like the website and wiki features, so i'm mainly on streams now.
@phanisvara (streams)
I agree, but I would question whether it has to be this way, or whether this is just a consequence of the way that the software systems are built today.
Can we build systems that allow and encourage people to use separate tools for separate jobs without forcing complexity onto them?
For instance, ubiquitous single sign-on would make it far easier for disparate tools to integrate with each other seamlessly.
i understand why people don't want to use a separate tool for every other thing they're doing. this gets complicated quick.
I agree, but I would question whether it has to be this way, or whether this is just a consequence of the way that the software systems are built today.
Can we build systems that allow and encourage people to use separate tools for separate jobs without forcing complexity onto them?
For instance, ubiquitous single sign-on would make it far easier for disparate tools to integrate with each other seamlessly.
Can we build systems that allow and encourage people to use separate tools for separate jobs without forcing complexity onto them?
i guess we can; if it makes sense depends on the situation, what we're trying to do. talking across different networks using different protocols i find easier to do with the same client, streams, than using a different one for each protocol. when it comes to podcasts, images, or videos, i'd say again: depends.
i don't deal with many of those and prefer to open them right in streams if possible. if i'd spend a lot of time with those media files, had many of them from different sources, sort & categorize them, i might want to use a separate app. for that...don't really know, never tried one of them.
assuming i would use a separate app for something, signing in isn't a real problem; i let my browser remember the login details, that's it. i do use dedicated websites instead of hubzilla's built-in app., and authenticating visitors / users with different permissions is more interesting.
i'm planning to tie those into streams via OAuth or some other form of 'magic' authentication, and using streams posts as comments on the website. will be a little tricky because i'm not using PHP but django / python for web projects, but not a real problem.
@phanisvara (streams)
I don't complain about that as long as people choose a tool that's actually appropriate for these purposes.
But they use Mastodon for everything. They say, "I don't care how much better XYZ is at it, Mastodon can do it, and I don't want to move/I can't move/XYZ doesn't work as perfectly with my favourite Mastodon app, so I'll stick with Mastodon."
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta
i understand why people don't want to use a separate tool for every other thing they're doing. this gets complicated quick.
I don't complain about that as long as people choose a tool that's actually appropriate for these purposes.
But they use Mastodon for everything. They say, "I don't care how much better XYZ is at it, Mastodon can do it, and I don't want to move/I can't move/XYZ doesn't work as perfectly with my favourite Mastodon app, so I'll stick with Mastodon."
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta
11 months ago
People have the freedom to chose and people are going to make different decisions based on the information they currently have.
There is this concept called "perfect information" which is when you have the information needed to make the most optimal decision. It does not mean you have all of the information; it just means you have the information that results in you making a decision with the best possible outcome.
People rarely have perfect information. As a result, many people choose poorly and then complain. That can be addressed by communicating with people and spreading better information, but it will always be an ongoing issue since no one can possibly know everything.
The bigger problem is the toxic behavior that some people engage in. It's like mold. Once it gets on something, it tries to spread onto everything else it touches.
There is this concept called "perfect information" which is when you have the information needed to make the most optimal decision. It does not mean you have all of the information; it just means you have the information that results in you making a decision with the best possible outcome.
People rarely have perfect information. As a result, many people choose poorly and then complain. That can be addressed by communicating with people and spreading better information, but it will always be an ongoing issue since no one can possibly know everything.
The bigger problem is the toxic behavior that some people engage in. It's like mold. Once it gets on something, it tries to spread onto everything else it touches.
11 months ago
we can try to help by making information available. probably not perfect, but getting close, ideally. some time ago you mentioned that documentation about zot / nomadic networks was on the way. that would certainly help.
regarding the toxic behaviour though, i'm afraid that's bigger than can be solved or even influenced by software and information about it. it's the same reason that politics everywhere slides into populism, falling off the right side of the table. people begin to understand that life can't go on as we know it, resources won't last, the climate past the tipping point. we either have to drastically change the way we live or deal with tremendous consequences. that makes people scared and they lash out.
regarding the toxic behaviour though, i'm afraid that's bigger than can be solved or even influenced by software and information about it. it's the same reason that politics everywhere slides into populism, falling off the right side of the table. people begin to understand that life can't go on as we know it, resources won't last, the climate past the tipping point. we either have to drastically change the way we live or deal with tremendous consequences. that makes people scared and they lash out.